4F/ Identity in the Metaverse. (It's coming, Zuck says so!) How does what we've learned apply?

From IIW

Identity and the Metaverse

Tuesday 4F

Convener: Johannes Ernst

Notes-taker(s): Charles Lehner

Tags for the session - technology discussed/ideas considered:

Metaverse, decentralization, social media

Discussion notes, key understandings, outstanding questions, observations, and, if appropriate to this discussion: action items, next steps

The session was video-recorded.

Johannes: Marc Zuckerberg gave interview in the Verge about how he will turn Facebook into a Metaverse company...

… five-year timeframe that Zuckerberg provided as an assumption. That in 5 years we would have some kind of pervasive Metaverse thing… some question about how/why it looks… If Facebook, expect it to be a walled garden…
Mike: can you define metaverse?

Amanda: who is speaking?

Brigitte: put recording on also.

Johannes: who is in favor of recording?

… Anyone against?

David.: That’s the right question: is anyone opposed to it…. Silence is consent…

Johannes: okay, going to record… last chance to object.

…. Need host permission… how to claim host?

Kaliya: [...]

Johannes: okay, you are bring recorded… here is recording number 1.

… What is the metaverse? Definitions all over the place… no [standard]... first science fiction thing - Snowcrash by Stephenson.

… Another thing: the science fiction book and movie Ready Player One.

… Supposedly at Oculus you get a copy of Ready Player One on your first day…

… My definition: the collection of all information… a uniform user interface that exists on a variety of devices… from your mobile phone to smart goggles… including overlays (Augmented Reality - overlaid on the real world)

… To look at it from a perspective…. 3D Universe in which you can act and do stuff… We can talk about the edges…. That would be my definition.

… Facebook…. In order to catch up with friends and family… can see how it would [fit]... hang out in virtual space… something we don’t really have in our 2D social universe.

… Is that good enough for a definition?

Vittorio: I just wanted to add… I’ve been doing that stuff since 1999… way before identity. I think that a good way of thinking about the metaverse is… it’s an interaction model in which the computing is done by presence… the same vector as data… somewhat expressed via presence. Presence is best experienced…. But it’s … necessary… If … you can reach it by a software agent… to me that’s part of the metaverse. One other thing… projections in this kind of space are things that exist in reality. Things like artifacts you have in your life that have a digital aspect… the photocopier that says the paper is stuck here… if you have AR to show you that, that’s also metaverse.

Dmitri: Hi everybody. One thing I highly recommend is the Open Metaverse Interoperability group at W3C, as well as the Twitter group… GitHub…

… One thing I was shocked to find is that there are a lot of Virtual Reality APIs built into our browsers… Chrome and Firefox have WebXR… I didn’t realize that it runs pretty well in the browser. Then you can do things like plug into VR headsets… or do the Google cardboard, create a primitive headset with your mobile phone…

… A lot of interesting open metaverse servers… a lot of interesting implementations… The community has, fairly recently this year, discovered the decentralized identity community… Kaliya I understand you have engaged with their discord channel… There are a lot of needs / pain points in open metaverse projects, with portable identity and portable inventory… You have all these [implementations]... They are hoping to achieve that if you log into one server, create your 3D avatar… then log out and log into a completely different company, different implementation’s virtual reality server, and be able to reuse your credentials… have my (IAMs?) come with me…

Johannes: … I tried to hack something in the browser… what would be a Indieweb homepage look like in the metaverse? Demo… this is about 2-3 hours of work… don’t expect anything amazing… but interesting for me to see…

Dmitri Zagidulin1 To Everyone

4:22:39 PM

highly recommend https://twitter.com/open_metaverse?lang=en / https://github.com/omigroup/omigroup

Chris Butler To Everyone

4:24:58 PM

This is pretty good too as an intro: https://www.matthewball.vc/the-metaverse-primer

A lot of overlap with “Web 3” as well

Johannes Ernst (Indie Computing) To Everyone

4:28:25 PM

I just did a prototype “metaverse homepage” at IndieWeb Create Day this weekend: https://reb00ted.org/tech/20211011-personal-homepage-in-the-metaverse/

Johannes… In the web identity world, we think of [...]... I would like to not just bring my email address, but my avatar… I would like to define my avatar somewhere, not create a separate one for each site.

… A game… identity uses cases but not quite… Maybe if I define my own home - living room - can I bring it to someone elses world?

… I don’t want to do too much speechifying… but want others to chime in with what their thoughts are.

George: how much do you think stuff you bring with you vs. stuff you create in that environment… people working on protocols to transfer information between protocols… I guess there is sortof potentially a transfer of attributes between the real world and the “matrix”... (dating myself, totally…). And those attributes are bound to some identity… I may want a couple identities, depending on the metaverse I’m interacting with… I suspect my gamer identity may be quite different from my [...] identity… Is there value that’s created in the context of these metaverses? How do you transfer that value either out or in? Financial value… not just attribute value… badges, information… The identity piece doesn’t seem overly complicated… but I’m probably missing nuances… Let’s take the current scenario, I show up at the metaverse for the first time, I give them some verifiable credentials or signed attributes, the site validates those, and says okay, we’ll assert your identity into the metaverse… then you have some linkage… I would assume the underlying attributes are different from what I would assert on entrance or registration.

Johannes: I’d like to carry a shopping bag… a single shopping cart… but 3D is more compelling… I could put something in and take something out…

Johannes Ebert: … bridges to other chains, protocols, transfers happening on-chain… the identity chain… I’ve spoken to a number of metaverse projects that have questions about identity… mostly about how do I know who are my users… There are these metaverse companies that have raised a lot of VC (venture capital)... just have blockchain addresses. How do I get crypto-native people to add real-world attributes to their blockchain address? And how to I get real-world people to get more into the metaverse? … Sounds similar to DIDs and Verifiable Credentials… a lot of things happening at the moment… I think this is where metaverse/decentralized-identity [can be] … a bridge to the real world…. Overlap… DeFi protocols… with my real-world identity… I think it’s at this intersection of the real world with identity - not so much just about the assets that stay on the blockchain…

Dmitri Zagidulin1 To Everyone

4:33:26 PM

a lot of the work being done by OMI is exactly the ditch-digging kind of standardization of -- so what exactly are those VCs? what's the data model of a user profile?

Chris Butler To Everyone

4:33:32 PM

It feels like reputation is the key aspect here rather than stuff like a personal home page. E.g. gamer tags with your ranking or a hobbyist group with my previous posts.

Dmitri Zagidulin1 To Everyone

4:33:35 PM

like, each VC needs to be hammered out/standardized

Vitorrio… Interop… do we even know there is going to be a need for interop… I’ve been doing so for a few years… I’ve never used blockchain once for doing any of these… I had the ability to dress up my avatar anyway I wanted, without having to claim an avatar(?). Today, the metaverse in the Snowcrash sense, is there, is pretty primitive, but it’s a set of purpose-built environments, in which the builder(?) builds an experience… to engage… I don’t know how many times I’ve had to rebuild my avatar… Some support textures, or not, etc… If you have an iPhone, or Facebook, … if you want to use Emoji(?) in iMessage… If you’re using Snapshot… yet another avatar…. The point is, what is the business case. Until those apps in the phone/metaverse is somewhere you go when someone wants to do business with you, vs. just walking down the street, until those are purpose-built, they need the … interoperability… the avatar… It might be an academic question… Let’s think about it, if there would be a need for it… but let’s not be under any illusion that any of this stuff will be necessary.

Johannes Ernst: I like the dose of realism you provide…. In a travel app, business case for building out apps… Before the apps occurred, we had a case for the web… I’m interested in personally, the equivalent of the Web use case for a Metaverse. One of the beautiful things about the Web is that I can start somewhere and start clicking… The web is a collection of millions of interlinked independent pieces… I would like to have a metaverse… similar to the 2D web… It’s very possible that the commercial circumstances make that impossible - that the web dies off and we just have apps… But I would like to have an open metaverse… I would argue that the total value created is actually higher than in a set of purpose-built metaverse… but I can’t prove that.

Rouven: I think if you build a social network with some form… different skins on top of us… connections and social graphs of different types… and can disclose attributes… we don’t see the same interface… I think there are a lot of opportunities…. There will be certain assets that you can’t just copy… so there is a scarcity effect (that might be blockchain-based), and there is …. Which can be disclosed in certain contexts…. You can see the space way more creative…

Vittorio: I like the vision you painted of the web, of following links… I agree it is fantastic… Now I see… just like your user-agent string is shared when you visit a website… but I think the part about a web app is misleading… To me it’s not a smart delivery vehicle (app vs website), it’s more about the curation. You can enter the app, or you can enter a local part… The level you achieve at Universal Studios will be at a different level… In the end, the part that makes it possible is financed by the existence of these big other people.... They do not necessarily interop with the local zoo. I completely buy (thanks for bringing it up) the idea of the web having a common base that you carry with you - but the level of experience you might want to have - when you think of Ready Player One - I think it’s unlikely to see in the browser today… Curated experience… they have an interest in keeping you there… and not others (which Interoperabiliy would do)...

Johannes Ernst: Ready Player One is an interesting case… has a single organization operating it, with a benevalent dictator, who dies, and what happens after that. This is a book because it’s a real problem… the users have no say… like in the case of Facebook… Personally I take the [...]

… However, if you go down the long tail, the ice cream shop and the [...] do interoperate, because they take the same credit cards. The amusement park may have its own currency… Even if you have curated spaces, I”d like to see you can get in and out, unlike the case where they are making it impossible…

David: Ready Player One is not Facebook, it’s Second Life…. [...] was a long-time user of Second Life… I knew him… it’s very much completely inspired by Second Life… he would disagree with you if he were here.

Johannes Ernst: I meant to say about the governance…

David: I was part of the governance

Chris: Interest in VR… walking around main street. Dark versions of AI… There is a video of someone that had a filter that would automatically make someone smiling… such a creepy experience, a yuck factor of world repugnance… but when it comes to VR, very popular to have the app experience. Cf. Ticktock vs. Facebook.

… I used to work for their identity labs…

… People want to have … experience…

… The “burning man experience”... it’s odd to walk around, I’d rather just move between them.

… I don’t want to have to walk across the entire playa to get that experience…

… Overlapping reputation experience…

... Gamer tag… a real issue like with Oculus… may be different from what you have on Facebook… A lot of overlap of pseudo-identities…

Johannes Ernst: I’ve made the assumption that of course we will have multiple personas… it’s make very little sense otherwise…

Dmitri Zagidulin1 To Everyone

4:41:23 PM

@Rouven - Open Metaverse Interoperability Group https://github.com/omigroup/omigroup

gravatar is an excellent example

Rouven Heck To Everyone

4:44:19 PM

Thx!

Vittorio Bertocci To Everyone

Chris: bingo!

Chris Butler To Everyone

Hyper-Reality AR video I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJg02ivYzSs&ab_channel=KeiichiMatsuda

Johannes Ernst: picking on Facebook because it has oversized influence.... Clearly [...] in many ways… If that is true, it will be more so - a business with a similar incentive structure - will have the same or worse effect - if all-encompassing… I’d like to not go there. I’d like to have the web back... I’d like to express myself with this competition that is possible… where not everybody has to fit into someone else’s economic model… because ultimately… [Facebook as a corporation] optimizes for a lot of things but not the common good.

… What are some plausible scenario that by the time Facebook converts to a Metaverse company that there is a credible alternative governed in a more [...] way? Possible it can’t be done, but I think we should have this conversation…

Chris: if you go into your Oculus, you can browse immersive experiences in the Web…

Johannes Ernst: but if I put it on, not necessarily all websites will be Metaverse…

Christ: … We have lots of ways to deliver immersive content on the web. I don’t think most websites care… I still rail against the idea of the “immersive Wikipedia”...

Vittorio: Exactly… The point is affordances… when you are in an immersive environment, there are things you can do…. Turn around, what’s behind you… But you need to have [...], otherwise you end up like a B movie…

Chris: …

Vitorrio: Mozilla has Mozilla Spaces… really nice. If you do have an Oculus, you just go there, and there are games, etc. But it’s all proof of concepts… Invariably you find curated experiences… How Spider Type X (?) can achieve... how it works in reality, how to change the way it is interpreted… it really uses … you would have a hard time doing this… but I agree with Chris, Wikipedia is kindof okay the way it is… but until someone does investments…. The long tail… it will be hard to do… without the big people that pay for the main browsers… and create SDKs for curated experience… If you just have SDKs, you end up with GIMP.

Johannes Ernst: Is there an analogy to the early days of the web? … I feel like we’re at the stage like where Bezos is thinking of selling something online… Here on the Metaverse… we have games, that sortof work as a business/value proposition… meeting spaces… might be sortof interesting… and things like exhibits that Vittorio pointed out…

… We managed to keep the web so that the little guys can do things…

… Do we have enough?

… You mentioned Mozilla… I’m blown away by how much investment Mozilla did in this stuff… I’m totally fascinated… nobody knows about it… so often… then they killed the product? Financial difficulties… I think we can do more, and need investment…

… I think I would build more stuff on my personal website if I could interact with user’s avatar… but I don’t know how to do that…

Dmitri Zagidulin1 To Everyone

4:55:56 PM

(several of the OMI contributors are ex-Mozilla-Spaces team)

Andy Morales To Everyone

4:58:19 PM

Just fyi, for everyone here, I am a principal product designer at Roblox, but I am here on an individual capacity, and have been talking often to OMI people.

Dmitri Zagidulin1 To Everyone

@Andy - oh, awesome!

what is missing? better person-level key management and recovery :)

Andy Morales To Everyone

4:59:59 PM

Centralized government funding? :) I recommend reading “How Not To Network a Nation” for information on how centralized efforts actually help with new techs

Controversial I know :)

Alan: … I would feel silly bringing a dragon into a business metaverse… but it might make sense to have a unified view…

Chris Butler To Everyone

5:00:26 PM

Probably evolution of hardware. We need to build more immersive experiences for there to be more experiences that need VR.

Johannes Ernst: One thing I could do is have alternate rules of physics… but that is getting too geeky…

Alan: there is a web page where you can play with quantum scaling gravity…

… To me, whatever metaverse I’m in… In this room I have a picture - I don’t see it in the other room - but would like to… that would require some form of [...]

Johannes Ernst: is this a conversation about metaverse identity that occurs somewhere? Dmitri pointed us to the OMI group…. Is this something people see happening more often going forward? Is there a logical place for it… should we have it at IIW? Maybe premature to have this conversation….

Vittorio Bertocci To Everyone

5:01:49 PM

well, you don;t see your furniture when you go at the restaurant or the post office :)

Chris Butler To Everyone

5:01:51 PM

Which are the weird physics you are talking about

Dmitri Zagidulin1 To Everyone

5:02:21 PM

join the w3c community group! :) and, of course, IIW!

Alan Karp To Everyone

5:02:43 PM

@Vittorio: Not that I see it all the time, but I can see it when I want to whichever met averse I’m in.

Andy: Hi, I work at Roblocks(?)... If we are to keep this from becoming walled gardens - which is what tends to happen when you have different economies… Different ways of incentivizing interoperability…. Because of the economic factors, I’ve been trying to think around how we can do “Ju jitsu” on the places that need interoperability… Children’s privacy… how do we actually implement that across the metaverse… Not only could we incentive companies… but have government pressure… that could be a [...] force … to get some leverage… Interested in what other people think…

George: I’m still struggling(?) with the identity problem… I’ve heard about the KYC problem… some metaverses want to know that I’m a “real person” or not… there could be real reasons for that, or not… I was playing with a Facebook clone… I could get in, but if I wanted to do anything, they wanted to scan my driver licenses… Wait a minute, I’m not sure I’m ready for that.

… Moving attributes in and out… verification of data, users… don’t seem to me like that different a problem…. At a bank there is some level of KYC to set up an account… Why is entering into the Metaverse that much different? People are working on making that easier so I could just do it once…

… A set of personas… Against that identity I have some set of claims… Noe we need specs for interop and how to transfer that data back and forth… I feel like these problems are governance and economic problems… especially when moving between metaverses…

Johannes Ernst: good questions…. In the browser world today, the vast majority of sites are anonymous… I haven’t really logged in… I think in the Metaverse it will be the other way around. I have my avatar… and generally will be authenticated by default…

… If every relying party that I interact with… that will be different… privacy and correlation, etc.

George: sure, all sorts of interesting problems… collusions, or my data in a central hub, knowing everything about me and what metaverses I’m interacting with… the same problems we’re facing today… Like just moving pieces on a chess board…

… Interoperability a huge issue… I think the login side… my phone as a collection of metaverses… the vast majority, I’m already logged in.. So on the web I may not explicitly log in, but that’s because the sites could offer services to me in an anonymous way and still make money. That could change substantially… would not surprised if most sites start to require login…

… The web may become less “anonymous”.... As people we are not anonymous… we walk around as a globally correlatable identifier…. But we forget… In the online world it’s hard to forget, and we choose to monetize that… It’s hard to change this.

Vittorio Bertocci To Everyone

5:04:04 PM

i think "metaverse" might be the trick thing to define in this context- for how things are implemented today, I thought that the point was exactly that you can't

Simon Nazarenko To Everyone

5:04:30 PM

child privacy online is a big one

Vittorio Bertocci To Everyone

5:10:18 PM

Johannes Ernst: appreciate that… Story about moving Netflix into the cloud… I didn’t want to do that, but that happened inadvertetly…

… At some level there is a discontinuous change… on the same level as Cloud or Not Cloud..

… If we were to make the assumption that in the metaverse, in a decentralized web-like metaverse, where we will be authenticated all the time, we could build an infrastructure to do that, since we know it will happen, in a way that is privacy-preserving… It will be hard to retrofit it… I have goals that are not just money… If we build a package that involves protocols and technology, we could bend the metaverse as it is being built, to a direction that is more beneficial…

Andy: do you foresee something like… For example, Costa Rica gives you an ID when you are born… everyone uses it for everything… no one can steal it… not like social security numbers (bizarre…)... Kind of the opposite, making it extremely public, to get rid of the problem of someone stealing it… Even if that existed, why do you think that these companies with all these users will adopt it? I think that’s the big question right now… do we want to get these companies to adopt it, or do we want to build something from the ground up?

Johannes Ernst: A good question, reform or revolution… In our socio-political system, it’s unlikely we’ll get more interop/optimization(?) for the benefits of the businesses over the users… that’s the direction we generally go… We could say that’s how it is…

Andy: Not being a party pooper, just wondering…

Johannes Ernst: how does the world look like, that is not centralized? If you can’t explain it, nothing can ever possibly happen.

… How it functions, and competes for itself… then we can find reasons why someone with corporate strategy might want to participate…

… e.g. someone at CompuServer convinced them they would be better off connecting to the web…

Vittorio: sorry for being negative… my professional bias… even if we come up with a basic set of primitives that allow people to have privacy preserving [...], it feels like without incentives, it won’t help… Web is mostly anonymous (browser fingerprinting notwithstanding)... We’ve been going in the direction of not being able to afford that anymore… Companies just build something as a ticket… I have …. non-technical… some did not come close to a computer before Facebook came around…. But still, we started with decent privacy preserving stuff, but moved away… I applaud your attempt and want to participate… to create experiences in the metaverse, starting on the right foot, but under no illusion that [...] will not feel bound… nor will the users… they go for convenience.... Whatever is the value for convenience they will take… So let’s not have illusions.

Johannes Ernst: Use of advertising as a primary business model… If we didn’t have that, would probably get less fake news… One thing the web does not have is a payment layer… lots of people in the Crypto world working on that… If the Metaverse had something for payments (Crypto or not).... Would things shake out differently? I think it would.

Heather: Hey, it’s fun to be in this conversation. I feel I have been repeating things about capitalism and stuff… But I think it’s audacious to think we can challenge the business model that the Internet has always run on… that Google become Google on… maybe I’m just tired but I don’t think we will win this... Corporations’ incentive is for profit… Phil from GS1 said about SSI “does it work, and do I make more money with it” - the only reason companies are going to do anything is not because it’s moralistically right… (Users are not demanding it)... We’re just continuing on a path of Capitalistic destruction… I raalize you are trying to do the right thing, but I don’t see the incentives changing… I don’t know… is there any hope?

Johannes Ernst: Yes… everything pointing in the wrong direction…. But I would argue two things. It’s a necessary requirement for anything to change is that some people who are “insane” (maybe us here…) are going to try to do something impossible…. We might fail, but the fact that we try is useful… Just like the IndieWeb built its own community… In this environment, this is how we function… The other thing is that for the first time in the last couple weeks, I’ve heard political voices say maybe we should ban surveillance capitalism, just like we banned child labored… Hearing this in the public discourse is new…. More [...] investments… Just like divesting from Apartheid, and Fossil Fuels, some will divest… Just like a 401K, one says “surveillance-capitalism-free”, you might not put everything there, but may put some of your money there…

Brigitte: … Bitcoin just showed up, there was no real intention to derail the large financial players, just provide an alternative and this was picked up by early users and still grows today 10 years later … a parallel entity that over time has inspired new ways of getting things done…. I’m wondering if that is the same sort of thing here… Can we build a parallel [mechanism].... that might be so useful and effective that it takes on a life and growth of its own…

David: The laws are written in the context of the large powerful companies who benefit from Surveillance Capitalism… the people writing those laws run those companies… I have very little faith in Government fixing this…. But I like what Brigitte said… Bitcoin came out of no where, people like us… Bitcoin was probably Len… First versions used the last versions of Mixmaster… Satoshi was probably Len and Hal… doing something that had nothing to do with global finance, they just wanted to run anonymous remailers… Tor developers were also a part of this; they wanted to monetize running Tor nodes…. I wonder how big really is the crowd that cares. Is it just us? I might really just be us. If it is us, we should build something, and start setting up parallel systems…. My philosophy from the beginning... I’m on the cusp of building a wedge between Surveillance Capitalism and their Surveillance systems…. Once you have authentic data flowing through your self… if you move the code to that authentic data…. We are not giving up any information that feeds those models that Surveillance Capitalism models build… It’s possible to … [do operations on authentic data].... The business process gets a one-bit answer (yes or no), proof of authenticity of inputs, proof of nonrevocation of inputs… allows e-commerce to happen without giving private information…. It’s all cryptography… So the answer going back to the business is trustable… The coolest part of this design is that I don’t ever have to talk about privacy… It automates compliance …, reduces correlation(?), reduces fraud… and we can also do a cryptographic paper trail for 4th-Amendment purposes (for Americans…)

… Sorry to hijack conversation… we can do this…

Johannes Ernst: Yes, I think there are enough people with enough motivation to prototype something for their own purposes, and see where it can be… That’s the kind of thing I’d like to see in the metaverse.

… We may reconvene this conversation at the next IIW… The world is moving fast… Would like to move faster than that… An inflection point… The things thrown at Facebook in recent weeks.. We can do better.

Session Chat transcript:

13:22:39 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

highly recommend https://twitter.com/open_metaverse?lang=en / https://github.com/omigroup/omigroup

13:24:59 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

This is pretty good too as an intro: https://www.matthewball.vc/the-metaverse-primer

13:25:04 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

A lot of overlap with “Web 3” as well

13:28:25 From Johannes Ernst (Indie Computing) to Everyone:

I just did a prototype “metaverse homepage” at IndieWeb Create Day this weekend: https://reb00ted.org/tech/20211011-personal-homepage-in-the-metaverse/

13:30:09 From Charles E. Lehner to Everyone:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mDy5Pi0b4rKlwKbvA1zTPPYsarXekuJ6jfSfZZPDKag/edit - Notes - could use some help

13:33:26 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

a lot of the work being done by OMI is exactly the ditch-digging kind of standardization of -- so what exactly are those VCs? what's the data model of a user profile?

13:33:32 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

It feels like reputation is the key aspect here rather than stuff like a personal home page. E.g. gamer tags with your ranking or a hobbyist group with my previous posts.

13:33:35 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

like, each VC needs to be hammered out/standardized

13:34:23 From Charles E. Lehner to Everyone:

I have a question

13:35:42 From George Fletcher to Everyone:

KYC in the Metaverse :)

13:37:45 From Charles E. Lehner to Everyone:

You're welcome

13:39:15 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

@Dmitri - what is OMI?

13:41:23 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

@Rouven - Open Metaverse Interoperability Group https://github.com/omigroup/omigroup

13:44:10 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

gravatar is an excellent example

13:44:19 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

thx!

13:46:10 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

We should remember that in Ready Player One there was only one company that owned all of it: OASIS.

13:46:23 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

Chris: bingo!

13:51:53 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

Hyper-Reality AR video I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJg02ivYzSs&ab_channel=KeiichiMatsuda

13:55:56 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

(several of the OMI contributors are ex-Mozilla-Spaces team)

13:58:19 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Just fyi, for everyone here, I am a principal product designer at Roblox, but I am here on an individual capacity, and have been talking often to OMI people.

13:59:08 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

@Andy - oh, awesome!

13:59:47 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

what is missing? better person-level key management and recovery :)

13:59:59 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Centralized government funding? :) I recommend reading “How Not To Network a Nation” for information on how centralized efforts actually help with new techs

14:00:03 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Controversial I know :)

14:00:26 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

Probably evolution of hardware. We need to build more immersive experiences for there to be more experiences that need VR.

14:01:37 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

Games like Portal and Superliminal are going to be popular in VR (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/)

14:01:40 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

W

14:01:49 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

well, you don;t see your furniture qhen you go at the restaurant or the post office :)

14:01:51 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

Which are the weird physics you are talking about

14:02:21 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

join the w3c community group! :) and, of course, IIW!

14:02:43 From Alan Karp to Everyone:

@Vittorio: Not that I see it all the time, but I can see it when I want to whichever met averse I’m in.

14:04:04 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

i think "metaverse" might be the trick thing to define in this context- for how things are implemented today, I thought that the point was exactly that you can't

14:04:30 From Simon Nazarenko to Everyone:

child privacy online is a big one

14:10:18 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

the Dumbar number is king

14:11:04 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

Vittorio: which one? ;-)

14:11:31 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

150!! :P

14:11:34 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number#/media/File:DunbarsNumber.png

14:11:59 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

yep, that one:)

14:12:11 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

1500 people you can recognize… but they have different representations in each meta verse.

14:12:23 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

But the companies that are guiding the “meta verses” right now won’t do it without substantial motivation

14:12:26 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

Single reputation score sounds dystopian

14:12:27 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

one order of magniture down

14:12:31 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Won’t adopt it, I mean

14:13:11 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

Whuffle from Cory Doctorow’s Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom

14:14:22 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Sorry for not raising my hand, Vittorio! Just saw we have to do that

14:14:42 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

dpn't worry Andy, I am Italian, I do it all the time :)

14:15:09 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

Agreed @Rouven 🙂

14:15:43 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

Thought that’s why we built this decentralized infrastructure to begin with

14:16:00 From Alan Karp to Everyone:

@Rouven: You can have multiple personas.

14:16:03 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

Consent-driven portable reputation sharing can be incentivized in thoughtful ways

14:16:32 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

I think the issue now is the concept of portability in that respect is completely non existent

14:16:41 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

So we almost have to cross that hurdle first

14:17:39 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

Even with different persona’s - I think a general score is tricky, reputation is so contextual.

14:18:17 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

I assume that ‘a Metaverse is too diverse to have one score’

14:18:32 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

Ding Ding DIng!!!!

14:18:40 From Alan Karp to Everyone:

The idea is that I control what I do with my different personas, so in a sense I control their reputations.

14:18:41 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

+100

14:18:47 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

Agreed, you don’t need a single general score but you need some kind of common framework that allows reputation to cross boundaries and still be understood. Not as a universal metric but contextually

14:18:49 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

Agreed!

14:18:59 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

I like how this is slowly becoming “how do we solve capitalism?"

14:19:09 From Dmitri Zagidulin1 to Everyone:

lol

14:19:11 From George Fletcher to Everyone:

lol

14:19:17 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

@Andy the best kind of IIW session haha

14:19:18 From Alan Karp to Everyone:

If I have a good reputation in one MV, I would like to use that to bootstrap my reputation in another.

14:19:19 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

Andy that's exactly where all this stuff usually goes

14:19:23 From Chris Butler to Everyone:

The times you want to transfer reputation is usually to get some benefit in the cold start moment… like changing mileage programs.

14:19:38 From Kerri Lemoie to Everyone:

@Andy - hah! Yep

14:20:20 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

Preach, Heather!! +++

14:20:21 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

I fully disagree - we have a great opportunity with Web3/Protocols using as inventives

14:20:39 From Michael Shea to Everyone:

I think this is where the absence of policy makers over the past 10+ years have to step up.

14:20:52 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

It’s not a zero sum game lol

14:21:06 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

I think we need to both have an optimistic final scenario, AND work on Trojan horses to introduce our vision to these companies

14:21:15 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

That’s why I’m like “policy, PR, compliance"

14:21:15 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

There is a massive decentralized web movement happening and the mega corps are barely aware of it or understand it

14:21:51 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

To be fair, I worked in ConsenSys on Web3, and a big part of Web3 becoming big has been speculation due to HODL TO THE MOON

14:22:01 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

They just got money and people jump on ships with money

14:22:17 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

Yes, yes I agree. But maybe I am le tired now. And I don’t feel like I/we have been successful with my past endeavors, so why continue?!

14:22:48 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

RE: regulation is one way to address it. Intriguing.

14:22:53 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

I think DeFi & NFTs show the first signs on how the decentralized web could operate

14:22:54 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

One of my Strengths Finder strengths is “motivation” so I say NEVER SURRENDER

14:23:00 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

haha

14:23:25 From Simon Nazarenko to Everyone:

we won't win the fight unless the worldwide identity crisis strikes, where people will open their eyes and realize that there is another approach... imo

14:23:30 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

@Andy I agree with the Trojan horse approach. They barely know what’s going on, they wouldn’t understand it even if we tried. By the time they realize what’s happening it will be too late for them

14:23:56 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

@Simon suggesting some Mr.Robot tactics here? haha

14:24:07 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

@Rouven exactly. I see this happening on a daily basis and see the way that people with power dismiss it and it does nothing to take the wind out of the momentum behind web3/defi/nfts

14:24:10 From Simon Nazarenko to Everyone:

^ this

14:24:11 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

Try as they may

14:24:33 From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone:

I think we could if we worked hard and ran fast answer the “does it work” and “can it make me more money problem”

14:24:51 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Ya BUT “the children!” Is a good place to start imho

14:24:56 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

“Think of the children!"

14:25:06 From treycarl to Everyone:

“One must imagine Sisyphus happy.” :)

14:26:11 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

Back to monetization!

14:26:18 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Hold on, I don’t remember vividly, but didn’t the Bitcoin white paper mention finance?

14:26:24 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Gotta go get my copy

14:26:25 From George Fletcher to Everyone:

@andy I agree that "protecting our children" is an interesting place to look at introducing new models

14:27:22 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

Big tech & finance is slowly realizing the risk / opportunities with web3, and it will fight the movement … - but I think the movement is pretty strong already…

14:27:36 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

eeeexactly. Whomever flaunts "94% of people opted out of tracking in iOS15" is disingenuous. When the price to pay is clicking a button vs another people care, ask them to give up Amazon Prime and see how much they care about privacy

14:28:11 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

(in resposne to "who cares besides us here")

14:28:32 From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone:

that is a naive way to think about how businesses will do business.

14:28:38 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

Sounds like what is envisioned in this video (disclaimer, I made this based on work done at SWIFT in 2011 & 2012) https://vimeo.com/52354667

14:28:53 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

Just showing that you can buy a motorcycle, but not how much money is in your bank account.

14:29:08 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

Yo just checked and the white paper mentions “peer to peer cash” and “e-gold” and I know economics =! Finance but in the modern day world they are

14:29:17 From Andy Morales to Everyone:

So I’d argue that Satoshi DID think of finance and economics from the beginning

14:29:36 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

@Vittorio which only proves that people don’t want to give up their services if they’re never given a realistic alternative. When it gets built there will be an alternative economy with a different set of tradeoffs and it will be a real choice.

14:30:13 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

Thats what’s happening with web3/defi and what can happen with identity-based services

14:30:24 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

Yes I am interested! Hold session #2

14:30:33 From Heather Vescent to Everyone:

Please and thank you!

14:30:34 From Kerri Lemoie to Everyone:

I’m interested

14:30:34 From Nader Helmy to Everyone:

Yes please

14:30:35 From Brigitte Piniewski to Everyone:

Yes I am interested

14:30:37 From Simon Nazarenko to Everyone:

thank you!

14:30:40 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

@nader agree in theory- I just suspect we have different views on the prospect of those techs to be a realistic alternative

14:30:41 From Sebastian Posth to Everyone:

Interested

14:30:43 From Rouven Heck to Everyone:

Interested!

14:30:45 From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone:

yes lets do this

14:30:49 From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone:

interested!

14:31:04 From treycarl to Everyone:

Interested!

14:31:08 From Charles E. Lehner to Everyone:

Charles Lehner <[...]@spruceid.com>

14:31:28 From Charles E. Lehner to Everyone:

Thank you... Audio not working currentyl...

14:31:31 From Kerri Lemoie to Everyone:

Thank you!